DSP Robotics Support

kortezzzz wrote:What I see here is an oxymoron, Trog.

No contradiction - if the motivation is there, build a team who are skilled with different tools to eliminate FS as the barrier. Being a successful software developer requires more than just good programming: it needs communication skills, marketing, project management etc. (and the old devil, money, of course!). Each are just as important as the others, and no-one can be expected to possess them all - just as you say yourself.

kortezzzz wrote:But... my ability to learn coding is a total crap.
So someone like me has no other chance but "sit on my hands and wait around

Maybe you are contradicting yourself now?
In your post, you recognise that you need "the right coder" - and so long as you are actively looking for that person, I would not say that you are "sitting on hands" at all. That's doing exactly what any successful business would do - even if the code writing has to be 'parked' for a while. It's exactly the kind of pro-active attitude I was intending to get across - so maybe we agree more than it would first appear!

From experience watching 'pro' coders at work, the most common cause of project failure is not lack of coding talent, or the availability of tools - it mostly happens when the original concept is flawed, or when a team member fails to admit that they need their colleagues' help. (this is why I'll never go 'Pro' - my biggest weakness is that I'm far too possessive about my projects to be a good team player!).
If FS can get you even half of the way to a successful design, you have already jumped the biggest barrier - the concept is proved, and the schematic provides most of the 'specification'. Porting to another language is then way easier - someone who has used C++ and the VST SDK for a few years will make light work of it. FS can then be used for its strengths (simplicity, speed), and set aside when it becomes a constraint (high CPU load, no 64bit, etc...).

Anyhow, I accept that my choice of words was a rather too strong, and I apologise if any offense was caused, it was not my intention to belittle or ridicule anyone - just some hyberbole to try and open people's eyes to the fact that Malc is not the only person in the world who might help us to make a success of our projects. If Malc could make FS so that it was simple to create plugin of 'Pro' quality, I am all for that - and it is right that we let our problems/wishes be known. I just get a little tired of the people in the back seat of the car going "Are we there yet?" over and over - we've been told often enough that DSPr wish to make no comment.

and the old devil, money, of course!

Glad you've mentioned that point, because eventually, money is the main reason why people are so eager to have
their own dreams developing platform (Including 64bit, midi tools and support, whatever interesting tool, like online audio streamer or transmitter, cross-platform support, etc.). These platforms, when they get in to there ability picks, SAVE A LOT OF MONEY FOR THE SMALL AND RESOURCES LIMITED DEVELOPER\ENTREPRENEUR.

But it is not just the money. Its also time and nerves. It also make you much more Involved, as the Inventor,because you know and understand this platform well and you have at least the minimum skills to understand what is needed. I also hate the idea to start looking for coder every time I need to do a small update or to add a small feature.

I'm far too possessive about my projects to be a good team player!

I believe most of us are
and here is another reason why a good platform (which is easy to learn and understand) is so wanted!
If the given tools solve for me 90% of my problems (even) as (bad) coder , i can make most of my project alone.

...when it becomes a constraint (high CPU load, no 64bit, etc...).

I believe that problems can be fixed too. and people will show appreciation and support the developers.
And moreover, I believe people will always support, because all of the reasons we've just counted, until
this platform becomes totally "PRO". No doubt it can happen

Best things is as said by Trog is to forget development platforms like this so you are free to develop and expand what you want.

For those advanced enough to go a step further, but afraid of using C++, this might be an alternative. I was impressed by the supported audio systems. See also this quote: "This approach allows a single FAUST program to be easily deployed to a large variety of audio standards (Max/MSP externals, PD externals, VST plugins, CoreAudio applications, Jack applications, iPhone, etc.)."

I somewhere read that 64bit is supported, but can't find it. From the source files I'd say that's true (lots of 64bit scripts).

Faust is good for DSP and engeneers...
I believe the way is c++. Other languages will be better for ease of use like Java but jVst wrapper is a kind of a beta

CoreStylerz wrote:Faust is good for DSP and engeneers...
I believe the way is c++. Other languages will be better for ease of use like Java but jVst wrapper is a kind of a beta

I don't think you really got the potential of Faust. Just look at all the VST/VSTi here (Just click on exec file and compile online to VST/VSTi...

There's nothing you can't do. From voice generation, waveforms, samples, oscillators, lfo, mixer, feedback,... I'll give it a try. It's way more than a toy. (Btw. the code generated IS pure C++ ...)

Sure it is alot powerful, it's an entire language dedicated so DSP.
The problem may be that you may need to code each version and change things you migth avoid with a framework.
i'll give a try too let's see what comes out.

I know.
But it is ugly.
And for people who would like to create and sell their expansions it would be handy.

kortezzzz wrote:These platforms, when they get in to there ability picks, SAVE A LOT OF MONEY FOR THE SMALL AND RESOURCES LIMITED DEVELOPER\ENTREPRENEUR.

And if a platform existed that allowed truly 'professional' results, no platform restrictions etc. - do you not think that every single established developer, who already have a good name/reputation would also start using it?
They too could do more work with fewer programmers, or pay lower wages to a "de-skilled" work-force - and so reduce their prices, churn out even more plugins every year, and use the financial savings to beef up their marketing campaigns.
The sales would be good news for DSPr, and FS users, but it wouldn't make getting your 'slice of the pie' any easier, because your competitors also get the same advantage.

Can you afford to pay for a huge marketing campaign and fancy lawyers?
If your fantastic new concept is THAT good, it will be ripped off by a company with more 'horsepower' quicker than you can blink. They might offer you some money for your IP if you're lucky - but they won't if they know they can get away with it!
Their version will benefit from their years of experience, and intellectual property that they CAN afford to protect. So, their version is likely to be 'better' than yours - or at least, it will be perceived that way because of their reputation.

UNLESS, that is, you can come up with an incredible new algorithm and can keep it secure. Which brings us full circle - you need the DSP/Maths/Programming skills to develop such an algorithm from scratch. Unless you are fortunate to be a true genius, you still need to put in the hours to become an expert if you are going to innovate while using the same tools that everyone else has - or just get VERY lucky and 'go viral'!

Look at the history of automobiles, aviation, textiles... you-name-it. I truly believe that the 'pioneer' days are long gone for VST plugins. A few very clever people might be able to make a subsistence income out of it going 'solo' - just as a few people still grow all their own food - and for all I know, you might be one of them. But the vast majority of plugins on folks' hard drives are from well established companies, what came bundled with their DAW, or didn't cost them a penny.

I'd go so far as saying that this is exactly why we are still debating 64bit...
DSPr are a tiny company with big competitors. They hang in there, but after well over a decade of selling two very unique and intuitive products, they are still "small fry". They know perfectly well that the VST building market cannot sustain them, and the technology advances faster than they can keep up. Concentrating on education frees up some of their resources, because the technical requirements are less demanding, and the number of potential customers larger. It's a no-brainer - and to be expected that 64bit/AU etc. are a very low priority for them right now.

P.S. Please don't think that I am picking on you! Far from it - I have great respect for anyone that is able to debate and disagree with their peers in a civilised way. If any of us would like to be part of the 'VST industry', I think it's good to share our thoughts about other aspects besides the programming. It CAN be done, and a realistic view of the 'state of the industry' can only be a good thing when planning it.

@ trog

oh man, you killed me with your realism

just 5 minutes ago i was dreaming about to finally meet all the big developers in the vst scene on one of the DAFX conferences or any other meeting talking about the 1000's of customers while drinking champaign and eating kaviar breads, just once i`ve done my 64bit release, and then i was reading your words..

sure, to play with the big boys is far away from doing it as a hobby but i still believe that it is realistic to get there also with a very small team or maybe alone with some people doing some parts around the core as long you never stop fighting to find the solutions which are needed, i mean just look at some of the big players like u-he aka urs heckmann he also was starting his projects just by him self or future audio workshop which is a 2 man show also like sugar-bytes, sure they all started at big companies like native instruments reaktor or arturia and have a great background, but if i look back 4 years i never thought about doing my own plugins so if i look forward 4 years i think its realistic to not sinking in the backwash of native instruments and co...

just it will not get more comfortable