DSP Robotics Support

FWIW that kind of feature was once available in Synthmaker but the security algo used was so simple it was hacked quickly by SM users so in the end it got removed.

I have been reading the comments and they are all good... I am thinking along the lines of Nubeat7...

I like all the sharing for small items or ideas, help, etc. I think I can say all of it helps us all as a community without a doubt - we are an awesome group like that and thanks to all the people I have learned from here, I still have a long way to go !

I have created a good collection (since Synthmaker) of modules that aren't really even used for audio (don't hate me ) they are used in the lighting industry. I want others in that community to use flowstone as well and use the forums like we do... just bringing more people to the site basically, different perspectives and talent. Its use in that area makes it unlike any other tool available in the lighting industry and so it would be accepted very well !!! And so my modules (the more complex ones anyway) would be of use to them or anybody maybe. I would give some away if I could lock them like a primitive... some of these are/were tricky to do and figure out, and took 50 plus hours to perfect, I have a few that I am not even sure I can do... 100's of hours research - or maybe I am just too dumb to figure it out !!! I might give it away due to embarrassment

I would still give modules away for others to use, and whatever happens, I would error on the side of "open source", but it would be nice if a few things that people have or would work on could be monetized for them and reward them for their hard work AND let us use / buy them too if they so choose. And there would be some down sides to this, I guess, but in any event I do not want to stifle any creativity at all period.

In the "Help Primitive" we can write please acknowledge the creator, instructions, etc., and that's great. This could be away of letting someone use a module for free, but have it display a contributors ID until a donation is made to the author or something like that.

The idea is to protect the original creator, let them either get their name credited (maybe it shows up in an "about section if the module is saved as a VST or EXE" or have them get a small fee for their contributions. Kind of like a nag screen but not as in your face. That way unless a person has given there work away and does not care if it is used then so be it, however if someone claims they created something without giving proper thanks then that's kind of like being a little devious . I am not talking about small things like a "scale factor primitive" for example, but something big like a "multichannel wave recorder" or even as small as a "stereo image rotator"...

Something as simple as locking the level in which a user can go into a primitive would be great too... maybe one layer deep, maybe two layers, then stop... Heck I wish I could go in and tweak for my use some of the standard primitives, has any one else ?

Hope we can keep talking about this !

Thanks Everybody !!!

I'm all for growing the community, sure about that!

RJHollins wrote:Couldn't a 'locked module' be considered in the same light as a 'factory' Primitives ?

True, but factory primitives are low-level objects, and I think the discussion is focusing on more elaborate components, broadly speaking.

but why do you want to lock the modules? If i would buy some modules i also want to modify them and use them without any restrictions, isn't this what i pay for, i also wouldn't be interested to credit anybody then!

if i would have any of this restrictions (sure i'm not allowed to resell or share the module itself) i wouldn't pay for it.

I agree with Nubeat, if you want to sell modules forget about locking them!

Personally I have many advance stuff I wouldn't give away for free, it may look to some like I give everything away with source but I do not (imagine what I have hidden away )

The problem with selling advanced modules and then locking them is that they become a lot less useful. Being able to modify for your own particular needs adds more value to the module and hence more likely to get a sale.

I do plan to sell a few modules in the near future, the community would not get these modules otherwise so it is definitely a bonus for the community. These modules are fully modifiable for your own needs, only restriction is they cannot be shared! I'm are not taking lots of small basic modules that people will have trouble keeping track of, I'm talking about very high level modules.

Even though I could make pretty much anything in Flowstone, I would pay for modules myself. This is because it saves time. If a particular module would take me a few weeks to complete but someone has done this already and is offering it for a few £, then I would buy it instead of spending time. This is because I value my time more than money.

If you look at any very successful platform, you will find third party add ons that people pay for. The fact that Flowstone doesn't have this is actually holding it back. It is great that people share and collaborate on the forum, this will always happen, it is human nature. Commercial modules will add to the community and will not take anything away. Those that try selling crap would soon stop when nobody bought it.

I think this idea that somehow to sell modules we need to lock them is false. What does the author gain by locking them? Will this stop people sharing them between each other? no. Does it mean you don't share your inner secrets? yes. But is what you have done really that hard? and nobody else could come up with that? I don't believe so. In software development the real value comes from innovative ideas. When sharing modules you are sharing these ideas regardless of whether of the module is locked. Now somebody else can copy that idea, they don't need the source. Unless you believe your skills are so great that nobody else is capable?

Also if you look at things like commercial wordpress plugins, you get the source! The download area for Flowstone Guru is a commercial wordpress plugin that cost me £33 with one years support. To do the same I calculated it might take me at least 6 months to get something even remotely on par. So 6 months work or £33? It was a no brainer because it suited my needs, I also have the source should I want to go down a different path to the developer.

The way that people should think of paying for modules is that you are paying to save time and are paying to use somebody elses ideas that are closely matching your own. Time on earth is precious we should all be willing to pay a little to save some of it!

If only there were a central place to offer modules for sale. It doesn't make much sense if everybody would create there own little shop for a handful of modules.

But generally I agree to both main points: I think there is a legitimation for selling high quality modules, but I also think they don't need to be locked. Apart from already mentioned reasons free sharing suddenly isn't such a cool thing anymore if someone paid for it (yes, I have a cynic view on mankind). Also, you can always define a licence for the sold module that explicitly allows or disallows the use in certain situations.

Ok, you have changed my position a bit... I too like no locking !

My concerns were more along the lines of theft, and so I wanted some way of protection. If a license agreement does that then it is solved. Once you buy a module it is yours free and clear, but is not transferable to another party... otherwise your work could end up being bought once and "shared" over and over again. We will have to trust the community, and that is fine.

Now, I will throw one more thing into the discussion...

Could the same place where we could or would sell our modules, also be a place where we could either offer to program for people or ask people to program modules for us ? And when I mean us I mean Flowstone users that aren't gurus yet !

This again is just an idea - but most of you all are really Really GOOD at programming in Flowstone (Ruby / ASM) , I'm getting better but could use the help now and then, and I would pay a programmer (Flowstone Guru) for that help. So I wonder how many others there are like me who would do pay for module programming too ???

Great points being talked about - I Like It !!!

Exo wrote:In software development the real value comes from innovative ideas.

This is how I justify my working in Flowstone among people like you. Reality check though: in software dev the value comes from implementation. Even if the ideas aren't as "good," those who execute them beat those who don't/can't every time. I'm not too proud to say that I owe a LOT to the forum regulars here, and I wouldn't be able to do what I'm doing right now without you guys (and I'm doing awesome things!). You may think it's straightforward, if time consuming, to work in Flowstone, but when I started out fiddling with it I was afraid I'd never be able to achieve anything significant with it even as a graphical, high-level environment. But over the past couple years, with everyone's help, I've learned a whole bunch. Still, a lot of DPS programming stuff is well beyond me. And yet there are many (generous) people giving such complex stuff away. These things certainly ARE valuable, even the more mundane seeming stuff! But to me, it's been invaluable. I'd like to say that there are a bajillion others out there like me that could benefit so much from even one person's contribution to this community, but Flowstone hasn't found the audience it has the potential to yet. Someday though, maybe...

Selling stuff is complicated. Don't underestimate it. You have to handle payments and deal with unhappy customers. You have to promote your product accurately. You have a greater responsibility to address bugs and other problems in a timely manner. You have to understand that there will be a lot of people who may very well want your product and are even able to afford it, but have trouble with the idea of paying upfront because they aren't sure yet if it will deliver exactly what they want/need. You face potential competition. You suddenly have to worry a lot about your reputation.

I'll tell you what though; if you've gotten anywhere with that 64 bit wrapper, Exo, I know what I'd be willing to pay upfront for.

Perfect Human Interface wrote:

Exo wrote:In software development the real value comes from innovative ideas.

This is how I justify my working in Flowstone among people like you. Reality check though: in software dev the value comes from implementation. Even if the ideas aren't as "good," those who execute them beat those who don't/can't every time. I'm not too proud to say that I owe a LOT to the forum regulars here, and I wouldn't be able to do what I'm doing right now without you guys (and I'm doing awesome things!). You may think it's straightforward, if time consuming, to work in Flowstone, but when I started out fiddling with it I was afraid I'd never be able to achieve anything significant with it even as a graphical, high-level environment. But over the past couple years, with everyone's help, I've learned a whole bunch. Still, a lot of DPS programming stuff is well beyond me. And yet there are many (generous) people giving such complex stuff away. These things certainly ARE valuable, even the more mundane seeming stuff! But to me, it's been invaluable. I'd like to say that there are a bajillion others out there like me that could benefit so much from even one person's contribution to this community, but Flowstone hasn't found the audience it has the potential to yet. Someday though, maybe...

Selling stuff is complicated. Don't underestimate it. You have to handle payments and deal with unhappy customers. You have to promote your product accurately. You have a greater responsibility to address bugs and other problems in a timely manner. You have to understand that there will be a lot of people who may very well want your product and are even able to afford it, but have trouble with the idea of paying upfront because they aren't sure yet if it will deliver exactly what they want/need. You face potential competition. You suddenly have to worry a lot about your reputation.

I'll tell you what though; if you've gotten anywhere with that 64 bit wrapper, Exo, I know what I'd be willing to pay upfront for.

Yes selling is a challenge, and it has just been made more complicated by the new EU vat rules. This is putting me off a bit because I have a lot of administration to do and I don't expect to sell that much anyway.

I am currently working on finishing my VST once it is done I will seriously attempt a 64bit wrapper. I did make a start but it was much more work than I imagined. I do have a method I can use to make it work. Hardest thing is creating a nice automated app that lets people compile the 32bit VST to 64bit, I could do it manually for everyone but, well, I don't want too

Exo wrote:it was much more work than I imagined.

I'm sure that's why we don't have it yet. I don't have to point out how many people will be waiting in line for this if you can pull it off... but I will anyways: everyone.